Nice piece of writing Paul. I'd not heard about the Goldwater Rule, but appreciated your investigation into the potential challenges and contradictions there. As another therapist, I face this when clients discuss another person in their life, especially one that is causing them a great deal of distress. In the interests of 'better the devil you know', and 'keep your enemies closer', it can be very helpful for the client to gain a better understanding of the likely psychological dynamics of the person they are dealing with. However, of course, we are gaining information on that third party through the filter of our client's experience, and not, as the Goldwater Rule points out, through direct contact or clinical examination of that person. Thanks for the thought-provoking piece. I look forward to what more is to come!
You raise a really interesting point about the ethical issues involved in talking about other people a client knows in therapy. It's a subjective account of their lived experience and as therapists, we're sometimes called upon to suggest possible 'blind spots' to our clients, in the interests of increased self-awareness.
That said, I've found it so useful to the trauma healing process for people to understand how abusive relationships 'work'. In fact, I agree with psychoanalyst Daniel Shaw that it's actually necessary for alleviating the shame of being victimised by another. This is especially true for people who have joined cults or high control groups, but an abusive relationship is a cult of one - the dynamics are the same - and this is something I plan to write about.
For anyone who is grappling with that right now or wanting to read more before I get around to it, I recommend Daniel Shaw's book "Traumatic Narcissism and Recovery: Leaving the Prison of Shame and Fear"
Have just found you on Substack, after enjoying your contributions to David’s stories. Having lived with a narcissist for 30 years (I used to work in mental health) I presume I am not breaking the Goldwater rule as had a long time to diagnose, your writing is incredibly healing. Look forward to exploring your catalogue and assume there is further healing to be had as said narcissist was also a big conspiracy theorist and COVID was the final nail in the coffin on our relationship as I work for a public health agency so you can imagine the joy of living through that!! Thank you, your work is much appreciated!
Thanks, Zoé. However, if you’re working in public health, and especially did so during COVID, I want to thank *you* for all you do and did.
The Goldwater Rule really only applies to being explicitly diagnostic about people you’ve named. It also comes from a time where people were often only known to clinicians from their brief TV appearances and newspaper commentary. That said, the clinical focus on the diagnostic interview as the only way to have valid insight is based on that era’s limitations. These days people are offering us insights into their psyche with every unfiltered tweet, for better… or worse. *cough* Trump *cough* Musk.
So there is no ethical problem at all sharing your experience and thoughts about your ex. You lived it and you need to be able to talk about it, without shame or censure. I can only I imagine how hard that time must have been for you. And it makes sense that they got worse and even more rabidly conspiratorial.
Narcissistically inclined people generally find any limitations on their freedoms (including other people’s boundaries) to be unbearable since it attacks their sense of personal specialness. Hence, mandatory vaccination or lock-downs are an affront that brings out their narcissistic rage. And you were likely the only person nearby to vent that endless anger at.
Being stuck at ground zero with someone like that, my heart goes out to you. I’m glad you’re out of that and finding some healing! *hugs*
Does this rule apply to us amateur psycholo-iatrists?
Only on Tuesdays. The rest of the week, you're free to "get down with your bad self".
Or rather selves since I don't personally (or professionally) subscribe to the idea that we have a single unitary self.
Nice piece of writing Paul. I'd not heard about the Goldwater Rule, but appreciated your investigation into the potential challenges and contradictions there. As another therapist, I face this when clients discuss another person in their life, especially one that is causing them a great deal of distress. In the interests of 'better the devil you know', and 'keep your enemies closer', it can be very helpful for the client to gain a better understanding of the likely psychological dynamics of the person they are dealing with. However, of course, we are gaining information on that third party through the filter of our client's experience, and not, as the Goldwater Rule points out, through direct contact or clinical examination of that person. Thanks for the thought-provoking piece. I look forward to what more is to come!
Thanks, Beth.
You raise a really interesting point about the ethical issues involved in talking about other people a client knows in therapy. It's a subjective account of their lived experience and as therapists, we're sometimes called upon to suggest possible 'blind spots' to our clients, in the interests of increased self-awareness.
That said, I've found it so useful to the trauma healing process for people to understand how abusive relationships 'work'. In fact, I agree with psychoanalyst Daniel Shaw that it's actually necessary for alleviating the shame of being victimised by another. This is especially true for people who have joined cults or high control groups, but an abusive relationship is a cult of one - the dynamics are the same - and this is something I plan to write about.
For anyone who is grappling with that right now or wanting to read more before I get around to it, I recommend Daniel Shaw's book "Traumatic Narcissism and Recovery: Leaving the Prison of Shame and Fear"
https://www.amazon.com/Traumatic-Narcissism-Recovery-Relational-Perspectives/dp/0367775328
Thank you, Paul, hugs back, it means a lot that you took the time to answer my message
Have just found you on Substack, after enjoying your contributions to David’s stories. Having lived with a narcissist for 30 years (I used to work in mental health) I presume I am not breaking the Goldwater rule as had a long time to diagnose, your writing is incredibly healing. Look forward to exploring your catalogue and assume there is further healing to be had as said narcissist was also a big conspiracy theorist and COVID was the final nail in the coffin on our relationship as I work for a public health agency so you can imagine the joy of living through that!! Thank you, your work is much appreciated!
Thanks, Zoé. However, if you’re working in public health, and especially did so during COVID, I want to thank *you* for all you do and did.
The Goldwater Rule really only applies to being explicitly diagnostic about people you’ve named. It also comes from a time where people were often only known to clinicians from their brief TV appearances and newspaper commentary. That said, the clinical focus on the diagnostic interview as the only way to have valid insight is based on that era’s limitations. These days people are offering us insights into their psyche with every unfiltered tweet, for better… or worse. *cough* Trump *cough* Musk.
So there is no ethical problem at all sharing your experience and thoughts about your ex. You lived it and you need to be able to talk about it, without shame or censure. I can only I imagine how hard that time must have been for you. And it makes sense that they got worse and even more rabidly conspiratorial.
Narcissistically inclined people generally find any limitations on their freedoms (including other people’s boundaries) to be unbearable since it attacks their sense of personal specialness. Hence, mandatory vaccination or lock-downs are an affront that brings out their narcissistic rage. And you were likely the only person nearby to vent that endless anger at.
Being stuck at ground zero with someone like that, my heart goes out to you. I’m glad you’re out of that and finding some healing! *hugs*